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Logisphere Feedback and flame
By: Anonymous User
Added: 06/09/2006 - 06:24 AM

this is from a email I received - sse


Hi...

I found your Logisphere software to be about what I was
looking for to monitor my elderly mother.

Its free, right ?

Ahhhhhh....... but after going to the trouble of
figuring out how to use it, getting the free license and all,

IT WON'T STAY ON OVERNIGHT !!!!!
It says I need a "Pro" license to run continuous.

I'm pretty ticked off.
You don't put any information I can find on your site as to
what the limitations are in your product.
I had the impression it is under development and would in time become
a product needing to be paid for.
But not until it works completely.

Why do you have limitations like this in your "free" software
that you don't tell users about ?
You've wasted my time with this crap.

Or did I miss something ?

Before I'd be willing to pay for a "Pro" license, I'm going to need it to
be competitive with other paid-for products.

Your documentation is almost nil.
I can't figure out how to replay snapshots as a stitched-together video.
It seems to only handle one camera.

I'm sufficiently annoyed that I will be looking into other products,
and will probably abandon yours for one that is better documented
and more mature.
By: sse
Rank: Forum Addict
Topics: 73
From: n/a
Added: 06/09/2006 - 08:26 AM

Its free, right ?
Yes, it is free. It's free to download, free to install, you get a Free License for free,
and you're free to delete it if you don't like it Smile!


You don't put any information I can find on your site as to
what the limitations are in your product.
You must have missed it.

LogiSphere comes with a help file (press F1 to see it, there is also a menu entry in the program group)

The Help start page has a License link which shows license types and limitations in detail.

I had the impression it is under development and would in time become
a product needing to be paid for.
This was true last year. I wonder why you did get that impression, when on every page of this site (except the forum) there's a link to buy the Pro License.

But not until it works completely.
The initial development process was completed November 2005. Since December 2005 LogiSphere is considered to be working completely.

Why do you have limitations like this in your "free" software
that you don't tell users about ?
The help file contains information about the limitation.
I might include the exact terms and conditions for the free license in the email you receive when requesting a license. What do you think about that?

Before I'd be willing to pay for a Pro license, I'm going to need it to
be competitive with other paid-for products.
There are many webcam solutions out there with much less bang for the buck. I do think my product is competitive.

Your documentation is almost nil.
You must have missed it. Read the Documentation section of this site. LogiSphere received 4 out of 5 cows on tucows.com. Without sufficient documentation, this is not possible.

I can't figure out how to replay snapshots as a stitched-together video.
First you have to store snapshots on your disk, either in intervals or on motion detection.
To replay them in your browser, go to 'Configurable live stream' and choose 'stored' from the drop down list.
I might include this in the How To section of the help file in future releases. Thank you for pointing this out.

It seems to only handle one camera.
Yes, the current version handles one camera at the time. The next version will support multiple cameras.

I'm sufficiently annoyed that I will be looking into other products,
and will probably abandon yours for one that is better documented
and more mature.
It's up to you. Please let me know which program you consider better documented, more mature, working completely and to be more competitive.
By: DennisLa
Rank: Forum Addict
Topics: 81
From: USA
Added: 06/09/2006 - 01:49 PM

Wow!!
This guy could not be further from the mark.
If he were not so pompous he might have read the documentation and maybe even browsed the forum before making a public display of himself. Roll Eyes

Keep up the great work Stefan!

By: AndrewG
Rank: Master Contributor
Topics: 172
From: St. Andrews, Scotland
Added: 06/09/2006 - 05:35 PM

I agree with Dennis, you have over 2000 users this is only one person.As far as I know this is only the second real complaint.Which is 1:1000 ratio,sure microsofts can't be that good Smile!
Andrew
By: Anonymous User
Added: 06/09/2006 - 07:14 PM

Okay, I appreciate your response, and I apologize.
I ought to have learned by now not to send emails when I'm pissed off. I read it now and cringe. Sorry. I could have at least worded my email as questions, not a flame.

Clearly I didn't look hard enough.
I thought I did.
But I'm on a dialup at 45K. I get impatient.
I make assumptions to save myself time.
I looked at documentation that seemed only to be screen shots. Did that change recently ?
Now I assume not, but somehow I got that impression.
I googled for "limit" and a few other words on logisphere.org, and found nothing.
A link to "license" on your help page gets me there, but that isn't a very enticing link.
I assumed it was about the paid license only.
The word "limit" isn't on it, of course.
May I suggest adding a line of words like "limit" so a direct search like mine would have turned up that page ?
Now, of course, my flame will show up, and presumably this reply, too.
So problem solved a little too late for me.
What about the others whose word is slightly different ? Certainly you can't be expected to think of all of them and cover the endless possibilities. But a few more would be nice.

I used to write software for a living.
One of the lessons I learned is that users approach a product with a very different mindset than mine. It was always useful to turn them loose and see where they get messed up
simply because our mindsets didn't mesh.
It looks like that's what has happened here.

To some extent, you've turned 'em loose and addressed mis-mesh with your forum setup. But it's hard to be bandwidth
and time-efficient wandering around a forum to find answers and specific information.
I often don't even look at forums because they can be sink-holes. Now I see yours is more manageable and worth looking at than many.
Now I search for "limit" in it and only get my flame and something about logitech.
May I suggest a FAQ synopsis for those of us trying to quickly screen ten webcam products to find one worth spending time on ?
Or have I missed one of those, too ?

I'll look further, and try to be more polite.

By: sse
Rank: Forum Addict
Topics: 73
From: n/a
Added: 06/09/2006 - 07:36 PM

Thank you for your reply.

I understand you have a hard time these days with dialup.

I set up the forum because many questions pop up many times - and I don't have time to answer them every single time to each individual.

I wrote the help file to provide help. As the answer to your question is in there, you could have found it without any internet connection.
I know the help file lacks a search function, it was too much work for me to set it up, as people don't read the help anyway Undecided

By: Anonymous User
Added: 06/10/2006 - 06:33 PM

>>>also a menu entry in the program group
>>>go to 'Configurable live stream'

One big problem may be that I do not have any menus at the top of my Logisphere window.
I don't see a "Program Group".
I cannot find anything about a "configurable live stream" anywhere.

Did I make it this way ?
Is there a way to turn menus on?

(So of course, I also have nothing offering me any help, and had to find the F1 option on your web site.)

Other notes and problems and wishes:
(using v1.6)
1) If I hit the "..." (browse) button for local save filename, then hit cancel, the file name is blanked and files are created in c:\, the root directory.

2) I used 1.5.x for a couple weeks before 1.6 was available. When the free license time limit was reached all I seemed to get was a cryptic message in the status area about a server
timeout. I don't think it told me I had a problem with the license. With 1.6 I got a message saying "you need a Pro license to run...", so you may have fixed that. Or did I miss it in 1.5.x ?
In any case where some of my anger came from was that the program wasn't telling me what the problem was in anywhere near the verbose way that was needed.

In your free version, there really ought to be a pop-up at startup and another at timeout that make it much more obvious what the limit is.

Of course, nag screens are a pain, so I wouldn't stop the program from running at startup, and you could offer a clickbox saying "Only show me this one more time", so people
have to see it only twice.

Also, my use of the webcam is only a local use. I have no internet connection on the machine being used. So your brief description of the free license is a bit confusing in that context.

3) I don't seem to be able to quickly recreate the timeout by changing the system clock.

So I am not able to efficiently test & see what comes up at the timeout. I see cam self-checks 7 hours apart, and no timeout.

4) The F1 help only seems to go to the welcome page once. If I "X" out of it, the next time I hit F1, I go to the Commands page.
So I never even see the link to "license" again, unless I choose the Welcome page again.

5) Captions are hard to read over the background. My wish would be for a way to make it blank the picture behind the caption.
Or even a chosen-color background for the caption.

6) Your Forum is a good solution to the support issue, but how is a new user to know that
By: sse
IP: 80.219.64.6
Rank: Honorary Contributor
is the head honcho and a fine person to get answers from ?

7) Your F1 help is great in some ways. But it's also way too fancy in some ways. Simple text that can be searched and
scanned has many advantages over bubbles that don't show up until you put the cursor over a spot on the page. That's a neat trick and helpful in some ways, but not in others.
It can't for example, be printed out and kept handy while trying to work with the program.

8) My point about mindset is that programmers forget what it is like to come into a program cold, with a different mindset and no previous knowledge of how the program works. We don't
realize that what's obvious to us just isn't to other people. We're in a hurry and tend to be much too cryptic, thinking ourselves clever.
One way to help that problem is to be a lot more verbose, especially in areas where your method or idea is unique, such as a 6-hour time limit. Or "browse" buttons labeled "...".
The tricky part is to do it without being annoying to the people who are more familiar with the program.

And of course,the other tricky part is finding the time to think of & write it all.

9)Your program does indeed have a lot of bang, and it isn't too hard to figure out most of it. But for my purposes the timeout I didn't know about caused me to waste a lot of time
trying to make the program do what I wanted.

It would have been much better for me if it had been a lot more obvious in several different places, and easier to find when I looked for it. And in fact, the time limit makes it not usable to fully test my concept.

So I have to pay for the license before I know the program will really do what I want.
Which defeats the purpose of having a free version in the first place. My case is probably unusual, of course. But in my case, the limit on your free version is too
restrictive.

A 30-day time limit with full function would work much better for me.
Even a week with full function, or a maximum number of uploads or a maximum number of files stored or almost anything but a 6-hour timeout would have been better for me.
Somehow I found just the right program on the web with just the right pothole for me to fall into. Ain't life strange ?
By: sse
Rank: Forum Addict
Topics: 73
From: n/a
Added: 06/13/2006 - 04:12 AM

One big problem may be that I do not have
any menus at the top of my Logisphere window.
I don't see a "Program Group".
I meant the Windows Program Group (Start / Programs / LogiSphere / LogiSphere Help)

I cannot find anything about a "configurable live stream" anywhere.
With LogiSphere running, start your browser and go to http://localhost:8080/, it's the 4th link on the first page

(So of course, I also have nothing offering me any help, and had to find the F1 option on your web site.)
How did you start LogiSphere? How come you did not notice the help file in the "Program Group"?

Other notes and problems and wishes:
(using v1.6)
1) If I hit the "..." (browse) button for local save filename, then hit cancel, the file name is blanked and files are created in c:, the root directory.
well - they have to go somewhere Wink

2) I used 1.5.x for a couple weeks before 1.6 was available. When the free license time limit was reached all I seemed to get was a cryptic message in the status area about a server timeout. I don't think it told me I had a problem with the license. With 1.6 I got a message saying "you need a Pro license to run...", so you may have fixed that. Or did I miss it in 1.5.x ?
In any case where some of my anger came from was that the program wasn't telling me what the problem was in anywhere near the verbose way that was needed.
The message has not been changed from 1.5.x to 1.6.0

In your free version, there really ought to be a pop-up at startup and another at timeout that make it much more obvious what the limit is. Of course, nag screens are a pain, so I wouldn't stop the program from running at startup, and you could offer a clickbox saying "Only show me this one more time", so people have to see it only twice.
I might improve that on the next version. However, my experience is that users are looking for a button to get rid of the messages only, they hardly ever read what is there...

Also, my use of the webcam is only a local use.
I have no internet connection on the machine being used. So your brief description of the free license is a bit confusing in that context.
The free license requires a internet connection. The builtin webserver won't run without a internet connection if you have the Free License. Running offline requires the Pro License.

3) I don't seem to be able to quickly recreate the timeout by changing the system clock. So I am not able to efficiently test and see what comes up at the timeout. I see cam self- checks 7 hours apart, and no imeout.
The timeout does not depend on the system clock.
The SelfCheck is every 10 minutes by default.

4) The F1 help only seems to go to the welcome page once. If I "X" out of it, the next time I hit F1, I go to the Commands page.
The help file is supposed to be context sensitive. To reach the start page, run the help file from your "Program Groups"

5) Captions are hard to read over the background. My wish would be for a way to make it blank the picture behind the caption. Or even a chosen-color background for the caption.
I think somebody requested this feature already in the Feature Request section of the forum
6) Your Forum is a good solution to the support
issue, but how is a new user to know that
By: sse
IP: 80.219.64.6
Rank: Honorary Contributor
is the head honcho and a fine person to get
answers from ?
There are other experienced users providing good answers. This is a one man show, and with the increasing number of users I cannot answer each individual question. (Answering your questions costed me more already than I can make with quite a number of licenses sold Shocked

7) Your F1 help is great in some ways. But it's also way too fancy in some ways. Simple text that can be searched and scanned has many advantages over bubbles
that don't show up until you put the cursor over a spot on the page. That's a neat trick and helpful in some ways, but not in others.
It can't for example, be printed out and kept handy while trying to work with the program.
The toolhelp is a feature of the development environment I did not want to leave unused. You can open the help file anytime you use the software and put it side by side with the software.
Don't bother wasting paper for the use of the software - it's supposed to be simple to use Wink
8) My point about mindset is that programmers forget what it is like to come into a program cold, with a different mindset and no previous knowledge of how the program works. We don't realize that what's obvious to us just isn't to other people. We're in a hurry and tend to
be much too cryptic, thinking ourselves clever.

One way to help that problem is to be a lot more verbose, especially in areas where your method or idea is unique, such as a 6-hour time limit.
The 6 hour time limit is indeed unique - most commercial software I know times out much quicker on free usage
Or "browse" buttons labeled "...".
Screen space is limited. The tooltip help provides additional information. Plus you can do without that button, just type in the path

The tricky part is to do it without being annoying to the people who are more familiar with the program.
And of course,the other tricky part is finding the time to think of & write it all.
True - if I wanted to have the perfect documentation and look, only half the features would be there by know. Please be aware that the software is only a bit more than one year old now, and I have to earn my living with other things. So the time I can spend on this project is limited.
9)Your program does indeed have a lot of bang,
and it isn't too hard to figure out most of it. But for my purposes the timeout I didn't know about caused me to waste a lot of time trying to make the program do what I wanted.
It would have been much better for me if it had been a lot more obvious in several different places, and easier to find when I looked for it. And in fact, the time limit makes it not usable to fully test my concept.
What is your concept?

So I have to pay for the license before I know the program will really do what I want.
Which defeats the purpose of having a free version in the first place. My case is probably unusual, of course. But in my case, the limit on your free version is too
restrictive.
A 30-day time limit with full function would work much better for me.
Even a week with full function, or a maximum number of uploads or a maximum number of files stored or almost anything but a 6-hour timeout would have been better for me.

A 30 day time limit would leave you with nothing after that month. You'd uninstall and reinstall trying to get another month free (and waste more time figuring out that it won't work). The Free License I offer gives you the
right to use the software 6 hours every day for as long as you like.
Somehow I found just the right program on the
web with just the right pothole for me to fall into. Ain't life strange ?
As you mentioned above, "your case is unusual". Most users who purchase the Pro License take less than 2 hours to figure out that they found what they were looking for.
By: DennisLa
Rank: Forum Addict
Topics: 81
From: USA
Added: 06/13/2006 - 01:17 PM

It’s difficult to be patient in an environment that is more suited to cultivating impatience than patience.

sse, you are the cultivator of patience. Wink
By: Anonymous User
Added: 06/16/2006 - 08:31 PM

How did you start LogiSphere? How come you did
not notice the help file in the "Program Group"?
I put a shortcut on my desktop, and didn't wander down thru the $%#&^*& Start Menu ever again !
On my XP system, the help does show up and I could also have made a shortcut to it.
In fact, on my Win 2000 laptop, if I do wander down thru the Start Menu, all I get of the last "Program Group" is Logisphere itself, and a double down-arrow. IF I click the double down arrow, then the Help shows up.

I really think it makes sense to have some sort of prompt visible in the running program at all times leading a user to get help.
Obviously you don't. Mindset clash again.
By: Anonymous User
Added: 06/16/2006 - 08:41 PM

1) If I hit the "..." (browse) button for local
save filename, then hit cancel,
the file name is blanked and files are created
in c:, the root directory.

well - they have to go somewhere

Okay, I guess I need to be more verbose, just like I'm asking of you...
By using the word "blanked" instead of the word "blank", I meant to convey that the path I had set before disappeared. I set the path, used it for awhile, hit browse("...") to change it, decided not to, hit cancel, and no longer had
a path.
To me, this looks like a bug. Does it not seem so to you ?